A Conversation on Truth in a Postmodern World

There is a shift in culture right now where people are replacing facts with feelings and emotions. Postmodernism is a rejection to authority and to Jesus. In today’s episode, Brody sits down with Jon Rouleau to discuss postmodernism and how we are to respond to this shift in the culture.

We need to be Christians who stand strong with Jesus and not get pulled into the tides of the world. Let’s fight for truth and stand by the authority of Jesus and Scripture.

Read the Transcript Here!

BH: In this episode of No Sanity Required, I’m gonna sit down with Jon Rouleau. We’re gonna get into just on my talking points list. I wanna talk to him about the Katie Cousins situation that we covered a couple weeks ago, a couple episodes back. And then I also wanna talk to him about what’s going on the current trends within the sexual revolution, the transgender movement. Get into some of that and then I wanna talk about the Twitter files. I don’t know if you’ve paid attention to that but it’s super interesting. Jon stays real dialed into those types of issues and he’s kind of the guy that I go to. I’m fortunate to talk to Jon on a week to week basis. I get to see him pretty often. He’s now the newest member of the SWO team. He’s on our teaching team and he’s also playing a vital role in development of our institute.

BH : Looking forward to sitting down with him (John Rouleau). I have a lot of confidence in both his intellect and his heart in the matter. He wants to see people know Jesus, meet Jesus, walk with Jesus. But he also wants to defend truth and be… From an apologetic standpoint but then also from looking at life through the lens of the cultural moment that we’re living in and asking hard questions like what is our responsibility as Christians? As believers, what’s our responsibility in this cultural moment, in this situation? How do we do what we are called by God to do in our generation? Jon is super insightful guy. And I think you’ll enjoy our conversation. I think you’ll get a lot out of it. Thank you for listening. Welcome to No Sanity Required.

JR: I always want to try to have these conversations in a very practical manner and you can get so caught up in the philosophy side that it just doesn’t make sense. So in a post-modern world some would say that any claim of truth is an actual claim of power.

BH: Okay, I’ve heard that.

JR: So if you’re gonna say we only get sex from biology, we only get science from data. We only get truth from the Bible. They would say you’re only making that claim because you want power. And so they say there’s no way that anybody can actually know what is true because everybody’s biased and it’s just their opinion. That’s where deconstruction comes in. It’s just the pastor’s opinion. It’s just a name, your denomination. It’s just their denominational opinion. And that opinion has been used to oppress, pick a group and therefore delegitimizes their opinion which as Christians we would say that’s actually true. And so it creates a very unstable world where sometimes you’re sitting here and you’re thinking, “Am I going crazy?” How… I’m staring at something that I’m like, this should be so obvious to everybody around me but there’s nothing obvious anymore because they have created a world where there’s nothing objectively true. And just to simplify this before we go off, this is where I think for us as Christians we have such an opportunity if we can stand strong in this moment and hold first to the scriptures, to the gospel, to Jesus.

JR: Because if there’s nothing that’s objectively true, if there’s nothing that’s true, it’s all based on feelings, eventually that breaks down. And what it’s doing in society is… I like to call it an Ecclesiastic or the Book of Ecclesiastes. I look at Ecclesiastes and I think that’s what’s happening in our culture. Is that there’s nothing true. And so people are experimenting with anything and everything and it’s creating a meaningless life. More depression, more anxiety, more fear. Pleasure actually doesn’t bring pleasure because it’s momentary and it’s not tied to what we believe is anything good. Because we believe that goodness comes from God. So if the goodness that you’re pursuing is not connected to God, it’s ultimately going to lead to your own destruction. And so it’s creating a world where it’s meaningless and you’re starting to feel that in society. There’s like a depression. There’s like an angst. People just want to escape. It’s funny they escape into social media but it just continues to create that more and more and more.

BH: Yeah. It perpetuates it.

JR: And so I think it’s such an opportunity for us as Christians and I think it’s a challenge for us because we haven’t… I think in the past we haven’t had to… Our beliefs weren’t challenged in a practical way in the sense of like nobody was really putting a microscope over your life and being like, “Well, is what you say really having an effect on who you are?” And now like I think the students are, because everybody’s pushing them in a certain direction. And so I think it’s a real opportunity for us to connect them to Jesus and the gospel and ground them in something that is meaningful and purposeful that gives them purpose through their suffering, that gives them purpose through… That gives them a way to navigate. Like it’s… I mean to simplify it Jesus says, I’m the way, the truth and the life. He’s gonna give you direction. He’s gonna give you security and trust. He’s gonna give you meaning. When you simply follow Jesus that’s what comes along with it even in the midst of seasons where there’s confusion. So I’m not saying you follow Jesus and when he says I’m the way that you know exactly where you’re going. If you’ve walked with Jesus you know he’s gonna call you to trust him. So you might feel like Abraham, “Well I’m going to a place in which I don’t know.” But it doesn’t mean that you’re purposeless in your going.

JR: And so I think that Jesus answers this cultural moment in a way that nothing else does. And I think the challenge for us is we’re having to learn how to communicate and translate the old truths that we’ve believed in a way that somebody that’s living in this cultural moment can understand. And to also know that we’re already like coming in the negative. So, oh you’re a pastor. You’re a Christian. So there’s already you want to oppress me, you are the bad guy before we even start the conversation. So it’s more challenging but at the core I mean, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and he is the answer to this moment. And so I think it’s why I gets so passionate and I’m diving in because I really I do believe with all of my heart and I’ve seen it practically those friends of mine, former church members that have… And this is not a knock on deconstruction. But those who have in a sense walked away have not found or replaced that with anything meaningful or purposeful and I just watch their life somewhat deteriorate or they’re just… It hasn’t led to anything fruitful.

JR: And then those who have persevered, who have held the course, who have wrestled through, who have walked, you just see it’s different. There’s meaning. And I’m not saying that oh their life is amazing and they’re so happy, but I do see that there’s meaning and purpose and fulfillment and joy in the midst of this. Does that make sense?

BH: Yeah. Yeah. When you’re talking about there’s two things that stood out to me when you were explaining that, one when I hold to truth, for us we’re guided by the truth of the gospel. Jesus said and I am the truth.

JR: Mm-hmm.

BH: And so for us the teachings of Jesus are truth. And Jesus claimed to be God, he called people to believe in him for eternal life. He called people to repent, he preached the kingdom of the gospel. And so you can’t redefine Jesus and say no, that we reject that Jesus. But we do like the social justice Jesus. It’s… Jesus has revealed himself to us through his scriptures. And if we accept and embrace that Jesus then we’re gonna walk in his precepts, his truths, his teaching. We’re gonna live a life that is not built on and based on the law and behavior modification. It is gonna be based on following Jesus and worshiping Jesus. But when somebody chooses to do that or surrenders their life to that, they can expect persecution. So for instance we just had Katie Cousins on here again. And we’ve all been in the middle of Katie’s story over the last year. Katie is as kind of person as you’ll ever meet, as loving a person as you’ll ever meet, as good a teammate as you could ever ask for. You could have completely opposing political or social or cultural views, religious views. Katie’s gonna strive to be your friend and love you. Well like she’s not out to debate or argue or condemn but as soon as she was not willing to put the pride flag on her uniform, she became the enemy to the movement. And it was this weird like… You know this but let’s… I’d like for our heroes to… You know Katie explained in that. Did you get to listen to that yet?

JR: I haven’t.

BH: But you… There’s nothing in there that you don’t already know.

JR: Right. And I’ve talked with her.

BH: You’ve talked with her. Everything that she said in that you’ve had five hours more of conversation on each of those. But when she… Remember when she talks about they did those two days of like inclusion treatment.

JR: Struggle session.

BH : Struggle session.

JR: I call it.

BH: Yeah. Yeah. But they had a… But they had a name for it. Was that what they called it?

JR: They didn’t call it that.

BH: Okay. Okay. Where they bring… The first day, they’re all just seated in rows of chairs and they bring this expert, “expert” in from somewhere in the UK I think. And she comes in to speak to and to moderate and mediate this discussion, this dialogue with this women’s soccer team with 21 players or whatever. It becomes evident really quick that Katie’s on the hot seat. This is really about attacking Katie’s point of view.

JR: Yes.

BH: And then the second day they’re seated in a circle. So now she’s got all eyes on her and no one ever gets her back. And what they’re doing is they’re saying… So you made a point earlier, that when people say will you hold to truth, you’re holding… That’s for power. That you’re holding that because your truth will lead to power, I’ll hold to biblical truth or I’ll hold to this or that or whatever it is. It’s really about power. But what it felt like in that situation is they were the ones trying to impose their will and their power on Katie and Katie’s in a position where… How does Katie win in that situation in their eyes to just capitulate, like to just say you know what?

JR: Of course.

BH: I was completely wrong. I’m sorry. I believe everything you all believe. But did they even… Could they even take her serious at that point?

JR: It doesn’t matter.

BH: It doesn’t matter. What’s going on in that meeting when they’ve got Katie in the middle of the room the whole organization is now against her. The entire fan base is taking shots at her. What’s going on in that moment where she’s sitting in that circle all alone, this five foot tall 25-year old woman and everybody’s against her? What’s it about?

JR: Okay, so I’m gonna ask you a question and I’m asking the listeners a question. What’s the difference between a deeply held religious belief and a deeply held non-religious belief? Now, I want to pose that question because in our culture it’s easy to define what a religious belief is. Oh you’re a Christian, you’re a Muslim, you’re a go back to one of the traditional religions. It’s hard to define what a non-religious belief is. And religious beliefs in our culture have been pushed out more and more throughout history. Removal of prayer in schools and separation of church and state. And because we came from a somewhat religious… We had a Judeo-Christian ethic when we founded this country. People argue that but most people would somewhat agree. So that is easy to reject because it can be defined. But what’s the difference between a deeply held Christian belief and a deeply held non-Christian belief?

BH: And that to me it’s com… The complexity of that is in that moment, they look like a religious sect.

JR: That’s what I’m saying.

BH: Yeah. It’s the same, it is their religion.

JR: It is religious in nature.

BH: Yeah.

JR: And I think that’s the point I’m driving at, is that it’s based on a belief. And so they’re adhering to a belief system whether it’s defined by traditional religion or not. There is a new religion in our country. There’s a new hierarchy, there’s symbolism. The rainbow flag has become a symbolism of a belief system in our country. And so in that moment… It’s so interesting when you sit back and you watch because you know a group that claims to be tolerant is so intolerant of somebody else’s beliefs. That if you don’t adhere or line up with their specific beliefs, then you are the one that is rejected. And so I think in that moment Katie was… She was coming to this point where she had to in a sense fight against somebody else’s belief system. And again she’s not fighting against it but she’s being put under pressure of a truth claim. And I don’t know if this is gonna get too much in the weeds but they can make a truth claim because they’re saying their truth claim is based upon oppression. So because they are the one that’s oppressed even though in our culture today some would argue that they hold all the power that the cultural tide is in their favor.

JR: And so not in Katie’s favor which is a perfect example because on the team, she was not in the majority, in the state of California she’s not in the majority. And some would even argue in our country. So but still they would say that she is in the power position and they are in the opressed position. So therefore it’s wrong for her to believe what she believes because her beliefs are oppressive. And so the interesting thing is in this world that we live in they are making a truth claim. And their truth claim is based on power.

BH: Dang.

JR: And it’s interesting because they’re arguing against all other truth claims saying well you’re only making that truth claim ’cause you want to hold power. But that’s exactly what they’re doing. And so the reason I like to call it a struggle session and I think I sent you and Katie that quote.

BH: Yeah, I used that quote at the end of that episode.

JR: Yes.

BH: Read that quote.

JR: And because…

BH: Let’s read it.

JR: Yeah, and it’s something along the line, and I might be getting it wrong, but…

BH: You have it there.

JR: Let’s see, the point of the… It says, “The structure of a struggle session is to create outstanding amounts of psychological, emotional and social pressure while offering what appeals to be a pathway to resolution.” and in this case, explaining myself. It’s the same abusive tactic that Mal used. I saw somebody quote that, but…

BH: It was…

JR: James Lindsay or something.

BH: Was it James Lindsay?

JR: I think so.

BH: James Lindsay’s real big in the critical race theory, intersectionality…

JR: He’s not a Christian.

BH: But he’s so coherent.

JR: Right. And I just… And I…

BH: By the way, for clarity, he’s not… He pushes back against intersectionality, critical race theory and those things.

JR: Right, he does big time. And I think it’s because he is a… I think I’ve heard him say in the past that he is somebody that believes in the enlightenment, or he believes in truth, and he is somebody that’s fighting against this redirection of truth that he believes blends into like Marxism. And without getting… I don’t wanna dive into that, but the point is, is that it’s somebody who has a belief system different than yours, who was gonna use a tactic of psychological pressure, social pressure, embarrassment, shame, guilt and they’re doing that in the name of trying to get you to change your beliefs. And the interesting thing is, they’re not gonna have a discussion with you in regards to what is true in our differences. They are gonna shame you into belief. Now, can I go on a little bit of a…

BH: Yeah.

JR: So…

BH: Wait, before you do, so what you just said, they’re not gonna get into a conversation where you can defend truth. They’re gonna just heap shame on you so that you basically don’t wanna defend your position.

JR: Right.

BH: Now you don’t wanna advance this position of truth. You are now in a position where it’s shameful to try to speak the truth.

JR: Right.

BH: Okay.

JR: Exactly. And so it’s not about, we can no longer live in a society where it’s like, “Hey, you have your view, I have my view. We could live together at peace.” It’s, “No, your view is detrimental to my view, therefore, I must destroy your view, shame you, get you to believe what I believe in order for everything to be okay.”

BH: Mm-hmm.

JR: And obviously as Christians, we say, “Hey, we can live in a society. We don’t all believe the same things and we can love our neighbor, we can love our enemies.” And I just think it’s so interesting that… So just a little tangent, I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier with Joe Rogan haven’t met Taibbi on there and why narrative and media is so important, because if it’s not actually about discovering what is true, it’s really about controlling the narrative, because the narrative is what will be true, whether it’s true or not. Makes sense?

BH: Mm-hmm.

JR: And so therefore, whoever controls the narrative has control of the masses. The hive mind that you… And so the reason that Matt Taibbi is this interesting controversial figure is because, and I might be going a little too much, but I’m just going…

BH: Let’s go.

JR: Is because, okay, so take Elon Musk and the Twitter files…

BH: So for our listeners, I don’t know if you’ve paid attention to this, but Elon Musk, most people I think by now know that he purchased Twitter for $50 billion, which is crazy, and Matt Taibbi is a sort of moderate freelance top reporter who has written for several very high, high, high cultural-taught periodicals or newspapers or magazines or… I mean, who’s he written for?

JR: So his background, he was a progressive journalist, liberal, and I think his claim to fame came, if I’m not mistaken, and feel free to look this up or whatever, but I think his claim to fame came in when he was reporting really about the Bush Administration, weapons of mass destruction, blah, blah, blah. So he was somebody that was going to report the truth, no matter what happened to him.

BH: Okay, yeah.

JR: Okay. So the reason why he’s this… Okay, so Elon Musk purchased Twitter. Twitter and social media shapes the narrative in our culture more than the news and newspaper have.

BH: Mm-hmm.

JR: So I would even say for the younger generation, way more than the news. My father-in-law watches the nightly news every day. He’s not on Twitter at all, or any social media at all. But for the majority of our culture, social media shapes those narratives. And we forget that social media is driven by individuals, algorithms. Individuals are choosing what you see and what you don’t see. Well, that was kind of hidden for a long time because we still wanted to live under the idea that, “Oh, we’re just getting information naturally. It’s not being influenced or manipulated to us.”

BH: Everybody can put what they want to on Twitter.

JR: Right, exactly. And so social media can shape the narrative of our culture. The stories that come out, I mean we have… There’s something that happens every day in our culture, but what you see is what somebody has chosen to highlight. So they get to shape that narrative. Well, Elon Musk purchases this company, and you know Elon is… People were trying to figure out, where is he in this political spectrum? Because our culture is obviously very political. ‘Cause when you remove religion from a culture, you replace it with something and I think our culture has replaced religion with politics. That’s the new… And so people were trying to figure this out. And so he purchases it, and then he starts saying certain things like there was a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that people don’t realize and he’s like, “I’m about free speech.”

JR: And he made a statement, he says, “I think the only way that trust in the media can be restored is if we reveal the truth.” So that was like, “Uh-oh. What does that mean?” So then he came out here, he’s saying he’s gonna reveal these things called the Twitter Files, or he’s gonna reveal the truth that was happening behind the scenes. So all these things that people would say like, “Oh well, they’re controlling this,” or “They’re banning this,” or whatever he was saying, “We’re gonna reveal all to be true ’cause that’s the only way we can restore trust in the media.” So he’s been releasing these Twitter Files…

BH: Which is basically, take the last X number of years, and he’s showing what Twitter was suppressing or hiding or monitoring or not letting to get out.

JR: So so far it’s been that there were certain individuals, mostly conservative, in fact, the only thing that’s shown is conservative, that were banned or suppressed or stopped. So it wasn’t natural they were being stopped. So that was one of them. He talked about the Hunter Biden laptop thing before the election because there’s a bunch of people that claim… Actually, there was 50-something intelligence officer, FBI, CIA, that said this is Russian disinformation and then he revealed that it wasn’t. So I was like… You’re sitting here like, “This is wild.” But all of this is, from a cultural standpoint, for the conversation that we’re having, it’s a fight for the narrative, because the narrative is what is in our culture today determined to be true. And the narrative, it is… What is true is what the majority of people feel is true, it might not be true, but if they feel it’s true…

BH: Okay.

JR: And so Elon Musk, I think the interesting thing in him choosing Matt Taibbi and he chose this girl, Bari Weiss, and Michael… I forget his name. I forget his last name. But he’s choosing these individuals that… Bari Weiss was fired from The New York Times because she was somebody that was willing to report what is true, not necessarily go along with the narrative, so was Matt Taibbi. So he’s intentionally picking these “independent” journalists that have been canceled in culture before that aren’t conservative. They don’t come from conservative backgrounds, but again, anybody that is no longer going with a narrative is being labeled, and somehow labeled to discredit them. So right now, obviously, it’s not popular to be conservative or Republican or whatever, and you’re thrown in this category of you’re right-wing because culture will automatically discredit you. So these… If you look at them from a background standpoint, they come from more of a progressive liberal side. But in my opinion, I think he’s choosing them because he’s saying these are individuals that stand for truth, or they’re willing to report what’s true, not just the narrative.

BH: When you say… Everyone’s heard this word so much now, in kinda tailgate theology, layman terms, when we’re talking about the narrative, you just, I think gave a really good, simple working definition of that, the narrative is what the masses embrace to be true, so it’s true, or what… And it’s based on feeling.

JR: Yes.

BH: So what people collectively feel, and a lot of times it’s a small minority that feel it, but then everybody else gets behind it, and then that’s what were referred to as the narrative, that creates the momentum of where the culture goes. And so if you oppose that, then you’re deviating from the narrative and you’re the enemy.

JR: I’m sure so many people listening to this have felt that, have felt like like, “Am I crazy? ‘Cause everybody’s going this direction and to me, it’s so obvious that the truth is the other direction.” Whenever you have to go against the tide, you kind of feel like, “Am I wrong? Am I off here?” You know what I mean?

BH: Mm-hmm.

BH: So when Katie’s sitting in the middle of the circle with 20 other professional soccer players and 7or 18 of them are saying… Are in complete alliance against her saying, “What you believe is harmful. “

JR: Yes.

JR: And so I think, yeah, when there is, again, going back to the idea of post-modernism, when there is nothing that is objectively true, and truth claims are just about power, therefore whatever is true is what the narrative that we create based on our feelings. And if we can get enough people to believe these things and feel like it’s true, like you… They create a new story and it’s very empathetical and it’s not… When you dig into it, that’s actually not really what happened, but the picture that they painted made everybody feel a certain way. Now, once they felt that way, it’s true. They got enough people to believe it, it’s true.

BH: “What you believe is hurtful,” why are they so… That’s what takes the narrative to the next step is… ‘Cause you would go, “Well, if we all believe one thing and one person believes something different, so what?” But what they believe is that if you believe the thing that’s in opposition to the narrative, then you’re harmful, you’re hurtful. Right?

JR: Yes.

BH: So the reason they’re 20 to 1 in a super majority against her, why don’t they just let it go? What are they scared of? Because what she’s doing is hurtful, harmful.

JR: Yeah. And I think too… I think a lot of… As Christians, we have been trained in a culture for the longest time that was, “Hey, let them believe what they believe. We believe what we believe. And let bygones be bygones and let’s do everything we can to win people to Jesus. So we’ll become all things to all men that we might win some.” And so there’s probably several Christians in that room that were unwilling to say something because we’re so used to not having conflict. But we haven’t faced a moment in culture where now there’s a side that’s aggressive towards us, that your belief is not just different than mine, your belief is evil. That’s new for us. So you’re like, “I’ve never harmed anybody, I’ve never… I’m not mean. It’s like Jesus is in my heart. I’m kind. I love my neighbor. You know what I mean? And I have friends, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And it’s like, but now they’re like, “No, you’re… The very nature of your belief is evil,” and now they’re aggressively coming after and you’re… And I think we’re in this [0:33:24.6] ____. What do we do? And there’s a lot of people that are just pretending or succumbing to that because of the pressure, like Katie in that room. The overwhelming pressure of… I don’t think everybody in that room believed what those who decided to be aggressive against Katie believed, but I think they were unwilling to stand up because…

BH: Yeah, that’s right.

JR: Right. Because that is where our culture is. And nobody wants to be shamed. Nobody wants to be an outcast. Nobody wants to be labeled as hateful, harmful…

BH: A bigot, a misogynist, a xenophobe, homophobe, Nazi, yeah, yeah.

JR: You’re like… Right. I’m a Christian. I’m not… I’m not that. And so…

BH: So the thing that makes these people… So Elon Musk buys Twitter and says, “We need to restore confidence in the passing of information. We need people to know that we’re gonna be transparent and we’re gonna… ” And his whole thing is, “We’re gonna uphold free speech, freedom of expression. And so if somebody wants to express something that’s completely opposing to my own personal views, they get to, they go to do that,” unless it’s legitimately harmful like terrorist collusion or something like that.

JR: Sure, sure.

BH: But what he’s saying is, “We’re gonna be transparent, see what’s going on here,” and as he start… So as they start to dig into these files…

JR: But see, that in itself is a threat. He doesn’t have to release any information. That in itself is a threat, because…

BH: What is in itself? The fact that he would say that?

JR: The fact that he’s saying, “Okay, I’m gonna buy… I bought this company and I believe in truth.” Bells are going off because it’s like, “What do you mean? We don’t believe in truth, right? We don’t believe in anything objectively real. We believe in our narrative.”

BH: Our feelings.

JR: And so anybody that doesn’t believe what we believe…

BH: Is a threat. It’s the enemy.

JR: Is a threat because it’s… ‘Cause… Or they’re, “Oh, you’re gonna allow for hate speech, harmful things,” and what they’re really saying is “You’re gonna allow for people to believe something different than what we believe.”

BH: Yes.

JR: And that has been labeled in our culture, hate speech, harmful, unsafe.

BH: Elton John this week went off of Twitter. He said, “I’m done with Twitter because Elon Musk is gonna allow misinformation.”

JR: Right. And so again, misinformation is any information that doesn’t go along with…

BH: With your narrative, with the narrative.

JR: Exactly. And so…

BH: So this… So Musk decides to release these files to these left-leaning, more liberal, more progressive, but sort of outliers in the sense that their conviction and belief would be progressive or liberal, but they’re not gonna just go with the narrative. They’re principled.

JR: And I think this is what we saw with Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan, Bernie Sanders’ supporter…

BH: Not conservative.

JR: He would say… He would claim to be more liberal. You had all these… You had a lot of individuals, conservatives sometimes talk about Bill Maher because some of the things that he’s been saying on his show, and we know Bill Maher is left-leaning, but all of these are a product, I would say, of a modern world or an enlightenment world where they believe in something that’s objectively true and they’re willing to hear arguments and wrestle through things. And so they’re caught up in this movement where they’re kind of, “No, I looked at the science, or I looked at something that is contrary to what you’re saying, so I don’t believe that,” and then they’re labeled, “Oh, they’re right-wing, crazy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” just because they have… Again, they’re going against the narrative. And so I think more than politics, and that’s why I wanna rise above that, is an understanding of this cultural moment of moving away from objective truth to a post-modern world where it’s a narrative based upon feelings. And that’s why you have deconstruction, stripping away of authority. And so for Christians, we believe in something that’s objectively true. We believe in Jesus, that he was a real person, that he lived on earth, that he had a real body.

JR: We believe in the scriptures that they’re true and authoritative. And so that is so dangerous because if authority is linked to power, they think, “Oh you’re only trying to control,” even though they’re trying to control. Does that make sense?

BH: Mm-hmm.

JR: But it gives us meaning and purpose and direction and it helps us navigate this current cultural moment if that makes sense.

BH: Yep. It does. So when Musk releases these files, the progressives, the narrative flow, the narrative holders they freak out because this is a threat. And so what he does is he releases information to these journalists who are then given the opportunity to report what these files say. And what have they been saying? What are they saying?

JR: Well and I think too… I think what’s important about this is take Katie as an example and you can… I don’t want to compare the… I’m gonna kind of compare the situations even though they’re different. The idea is we’re not gonna actually sit down with the individual and wrestle through the content of the conversation. What we’re gonna do is we’re going to shame them, make them feel guilty. We’re gonna attack their character as a person in order to try to destroy any credibility that they have. So that even if their truth claim was true, people would be like, “Well, they’re a bad person.” Before you even listen to the argument. And so… Or if you can guilt a person or shame a person or put so much social pressure on them that they would apologize, will they then have… How do I say, like de-legitimize themselves. So so many people when they get the hive attacks them they come out and they apologize even though they might not believe what they’re saying but they’re just like in the name of compassion or hey maybe I said the wrong… And it’s because what they’re trying to do is they want to de-legitimize the truth, that they have the truth and you don’t.

BH: Yeah.

JR: And so it’s never a conversation around… And so I think the threat that Elon Musk is posing is just having an alternative to the narrative is a threat. And so in our culture today anybody that was opposed to whatever narrative was in place would be canceled, would be swarmed, would be… Whether it’s a professor at some college, whether it was some person in the media or somebody that worked at ESPN or some random or a pastor or whatever, anybody that would make a truth claim that was opposed to the narrative that was being created would be canceled because they would be deemed a threat. And so that’s why this is such a threat. Elon Musk, somebody that he had the ability to buy Twitter and he’s able to control the narrative. But not just… They’re trying to say well, it’s just him as an individual. What he’s doing is he’s allowing an alternative group of people. Like there’s a lot of people that are opposed to what you believe there. Let’s just look at politics for a second. We live in a country that almost every election is a nail biter which in itself just shows there’s a lot of different people that believe a lot of different things in this country that there isn’t a dominant belief in our country currently. But you wouldn’t feel that if you were on any type of social media platform.

BH: Right.

JR: Right. And so…

BH: And the narrative is so prevalent.

JR: Exactly. And so anybody that’s gonna oppose that is a threat.

BH: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

JR: We’re in the midst of this as even as we’re recording, and who knows? I know he’s releasing a lot of things but I think the very fact that he’s willing to release things that are countering the truth claims that are out there are driving people bananas. Because I think in a society where you’re believing a narrative and it’s not tied to anything objectively true, it’s like man when somebody makes a truth claim opposed to that it’s like… It drives people nuts. And I think it’s because their identity is wrapped up into that. And yeah. For us as Christians you can be secure in who you are in Jesus.

BH: That’s the answer for us. And that’s what we know to be the answer.

JR: And I really think…

BH: It’s the gospel.

JR: It’s why. Okay. And I’m gonna get… I’m just gonna go pastoral on us. If you go to Galatians 2:20.

BH: I’m crucified with Christ.

JR: Yes. All other identities have been crucified. Your identity is now Jesus. I have been crucified with Christ. I no longer live the life in the body. I now live by faith in the Son of God. And I think I didn’t quote that a hundred percent.

BH: No, you got it. The life that I live in the flesh, I live by faith.

JR: Right.

BH: In the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.

JR: Yes. And it’s like this is where our identity lies. And all other identities have if you follow Jesus, have been crucified at the cross and we’re choosing the identity of Jesus and it doesn’t mean we’re not navigating what that looks like but there is no other identity apart from that. And so we are making a truth claim.

BH: Yeah. And at the same time you and I we… This morning we were in a planning meeting with some of the teaching staff here and and we’re looking at content, particularly breakout session content for 1223. And we’re gonna tackle some of these things for students. One of the things we wanna do is help students understand how to withstand the pressure of the narrative when you do feel alone. Because kids come through here and they’re just being swept up in this quotes. That’s where it’s so scary is the the 22 and under crowd. Now very few of them know how to stand on their own two feet and then be willing to withstand that pressure. But as we were planning this, as we were talking this morning about next summer’s teaching content, it came up. There’s this guy that I forget his name, Chris Beck maybe, but he was a Navy Seal.

JR: Oh, yeah.

BH: I wanna say like 20 years. And like one of the hardest going into the military is difficult psychologically, they try to break you down in basic training or bootcamp. But then to go into an elite, a special operations community it’s like now a bigger second layer. So let’s say you go into the Navy, you gotta go through bootcamp or basic training or whatever. And that’s hard they are trying to break you down. They’re getting you up in the middle of the night, they’re making you do all this physical training and just… But mostly anybody that’s got a little bit of backbone is gonna get through that just fine. But then to go into something like the SEAL teams it’s really difficult. So you gotta be pretty strong mentally and physically and emotionally to get in there. And then this guy does multiple tours of duty combat tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. Gets out in the military 2012, goes in and talks to a doctor, a VA doctor, veteran’s administration at a veteran’s hospital. And he said within one hour he’s coming out of there determined that he’s supposed to be a woman. So he is gonna transition.

BH: So then he transitions and it’s crazy ’cause this is a man that is a picture of psychological strength you would think. And in one hour a doctor convinced him that he needed to become a woman and he went and did it. And now he’s de-transitioning, he’s coming back to embracing the person that God created him to be. And he’s a professing believer and he’s saying this is on me. I’m taking full responsibility but if they could turn me like this, what are they gonna do to 12 and 14 and 16 year olds who are already in the season of life where you’re struggling with your identity? Who am I? What friend group do I wanna be a part of? Or what do I have to do to earn the approval of these people? There’s so many identity issues that teenagers deal with.

BH: This goes back to something you said in your opening comments and that is, people are trying to find inner peace. They’re trying to find themselves, they’re trying to find something that stabilizes them. I don’t remember how you worded it but that gives them stability that gives them purpose, that gives them peace. And what he said was that’s what I was… That’s what I was searching for. He had a difficult childhood and he’s just a broken person that found… Because he happened to be wired strong enough to make it in the teams for all those 20 years he had. Now he’s got a mission and a team and he’s a part of something. And then when that’s gone, now he’s falling apart again. And so well here’s this thing. If you become a woman, this is what you need, you need to reinvent yourself. So he does that. And now he’s saying it ruined his life because it didn’t bring him peace. And that’s what you’re saying just a while ago about what this comes down to is people have to turn to Jesus to find the peace that only he can provide. And so I had a conversation. So I’d to kinda land this thing on two thoughts. I had a conversation last night after church with the guy that… A young dude came up to me and said, “Hey, as a Christian what’s my responsibility? What should I fight for?” And what he was talking about was he had had conversation with a couple guys in a class.

BH: He’s a college student, 22-year old dude, 24-year old guy. But I think he’s probably like 24 but he started college when he was like 21. He’s like, “These guys are attacking Christianity. Do I just take it like when Jesus talks about turning in the other cheek or when he says just be a peacemaker. Do I take that or do I defend that?” And I talked to him a little bit about, “Hey man, if it’s just you and them, Peter says be ready to give an answer concerning the hope that is in you when you’re asked. But if they’re just attacking you, you don’t have to defend that. But you don’t have to fight back. But now in a situation where you’ve got the chance to speak truth that other people would hear that then you need to be willing to speak up.” So I think that was interesting. It helped me to realize people are struggling with how are we supposed to respond? Are we supposed to fight? Are we supposed to argue? Debate? Are we’re supposed to get all of our answers. Doesn’t matter because truth doesn’t matter. You can… We’re at a point where it doesn’t matter now if you can apologetically defend the faith with these people. That doesn’t matter because there’s no such thing as truth, based on what we’re talking about here. So the thing is to make sure that your heart is anchored.

JR: Yes.

BH: Your mind is anchored.

JR: Yes.

BH: You know who you are. Don’t worry about the narrative, don’t worry about the shift. Don’t worry about the current or the culture.

JR: Yes.

BH: The cultural moment. Worry about your relationship with your God. Worry about what do you do with Jesus. Jesus said to his disciples who do you say that I am? That’s what matters. Who do you say Jesus is? And what does your surrender look like? And if you do that he’s gonna stabilize you just like he stabilized Katie. Katie Cousins sat in the middle of that not just for those two days. This went on for weeks, the rest of her season. And she embraced who she was in Christ and was willing to sit quietly and suffer for it. And we need to be willing to sit quietly and suffer for it when that’s necessary and give an answer when we need to give an answer and expect that the Holy Spirit just like Jesus told his disciples, he said, “I’ll give you what to say in that moment.”

JR: Yes.

BH: You’ll have the wisdom of a serpent and the humility of a dove. Sometimes you’ll look like a dove and sometimes you’ll be called up and ready to fight and lash at an enemy that is trying to spit venomous falsehood and lies. And Jesus said I’ll give you what you need but you just need to know who you are in Christ.

JR: Yep.

BH: And that’s what Katie knew. And I think that speaks to what’s happening with like the lady that you talked about, the journalist who she’s been canceled and now Musk is saying she’s one of the people we’re gonna use in this release of the Twitter files because she’s been canceled. And she stood firm in her resolve and I think wasn’t she the ontological Argument girl?

JR: No.

BH: Somebody different.

JR: Mm-hmm.

BH: Who’s the girl that wrote the book Talk… Where she really talks about the repercussions now of people who transitioned at a young age particularly girls. You know what I’m talking about?

JR: Yeah. It’s called Irresistible Damage. It’s Abigail Shrier. And…

A big part of what she’s saying is we’re seeing now the repercussions of what this Navy SEAL guy is saying. Hey, I couldn’t figure out who I was. So the narrative pushed me in this direction and I thought, “Oh I have found a home. I found a place, I found a purpose and I found a place where I don’t have to hurt. So I transitioned from being a girl to a boy. And now there’s this catastrophic effect that’s being seen in a lot of people’s lives. And she’s also a liberal journalist and she’s speaking to this and she’s written a book.

R: She just… It’s funny because I think she has a Jewish background. I think she says in the book she was not religious. And I think she worked for the New York Times in a very liberal context. And there was a lot of moms that she… She’s an investigative journalist. So she just wrote one little article to touch on this. And she got flooded with liberal progressive moms who were losing their children, who said I have nobody to talk to, nowhere to go to, please investigate this. And so she started from a arbitrary or from a no biased position, just dived into this. And the book is very fascinating. It just uncovers a lot of details. And I think one of the things that I took from that and it goes along with this Navy SEAL, one of the authorities I don’t know if it’s… I can’t remember exactly if it’s the American Psychological Association or one of the the authorities for psychology, they basically said, “Okay, now the way that we deal with gender dysphoria is we don’t help people find peace. We do gender affirming care.” Which means if somebody comes into your office and they’re saying, “Hey, I’m wrestling with this.” We immediately affirm them. And so we don’t help them navigate this conversation, we just affirm them.

JR: Which is a different position than from before. Which again going back to the modern, to the post-modern, modern non-Christian secular psychologists where it’s let’s navigate your dysphoria to help you find peace. And there was this process. And maybe it was medication and maybe it was treatment. And at the very very… One of the last things that they would do and it was experimental and you could look into the gentleman who started the experiment and it’s a very dark story there. They would physically transition, but it moved into the post-modern where the narrative was, no this is what is true. Therefore we affirm them right away. And so that… And as that body authority came in and said this is what’s true. So it was based upon a narrative that this government body or whatever, this authority said no this is what now you do. And so now these children are just going in there and this is the direction. And like this gentleman who was going to find answers for maybe like he says a lack of peace, confusion, hurt, trauma. He was going in there to search for answers and he was given a direction. Pushed into something that he now regrets.

BH: Become a woman.

JR: And you’re seeing a lot more of this. You’re seeing a lot of more people detransition and they are suppressed, removed from social media, taken down because…

BH: Don’t fit the narrative.

JR: Exactly. And so even though these are real people, real suffering…

BH: Who were celebrated at one point for their courage.

JR: Right. And where’s the compassion for them? And they’re being silenced because again it doesn’t fit the narrative.

BH: Yeah. So where one girl had transitioned to being a boy I don’t know the name, I don’t even know where I saw this but I saw it was a video that she had posted on her social media. She’s become a guy but she’s like her hormone therapy has so screwed her system up. Her hair’s all falling out. Her skin’s got… There’s physical effects but then she’s realizing this is not what I needed. So she wants to detransition but like the physical effects are so devastating and permanent in a lot of ways. And, yeah. Oh man she’s getting zero breast.

JR: And it’s…

BH: Zero breast.

JR: It’s why the author wrote… The title of the book is Irreversible Damage because she wrote it because as she was learning more and more about the different therapies it was told that puberty blockers or hormone blockers or whatever were. Hormone therapy was temporary. It was just to pause puberty so that you can determine what you want to do later as a form of compassion. Somebody struggling with this, let’s wait. But what she discovered is as soon as you take puberty blockers, there’s permanent damage in your body. And so she titled the book Irreversible Damage because these individuals that are struggling. And I think that’s important for us to remember is that these kids, adults, whoever, they’re hurting. They’re not the enemy.

JR: No, they’re not. They’re hurting. And then they’re being pushed into a direction that is even more harmful in the name of compassion in a weak moment for them. And they’re being told things that just aren’t true, like, oh, this is only temporary. And then they’re realizing later on, oh, okay, I’ve actually settled this. I don’t want to transition. But now they’ve lost their ability to have children. There’s so many things in their body that have been permanently damaged that can’t go back. And now there’s even regret and more shame and guilt that’s been upon them. But, you know.

BH: And in that moment, they go from being this broken-hearted person to being celebrated for the courage they’ve never experienced. They’ve never been celebrated. A lot of them are hurting internally and personally and emotionally. It reminds me of, and so they end up turning on people that actually do love them oftentimes, or some of them come from a place where they have nobody in their life that advocates for them or shows them love. But it reminds me of that scene. Do you remember that movie, the Leonardo DiCaprio movie called Blood Diamond?

JR: Yes.

BH: That was 20 years ago.

JR: Great movie.

BH: A great movie. A phenomenal movie. And it’s about, you know, it takes place in Sierra Leone, I think, and it’s about the diamond, the illegal black market diamond trade. And one of the components to the plotline is they’re these child soldiers, they’re stealing these boys from these villages. And then they’re, you know, from eight to 12, maybe, I think, and maybe maybe maybe 10 to 14. But they’re getting these young guys, and they’re putting them into military service. But in order to do it, they got to brainwash them. So they get them high on drugs, they’re doping them up. So you got these 10, 11, 12 year old boys, they’re getting them high on drugs, and they’re putting a machine gun in their hand, they’re having them shoot people. Like there’s a scene where they have these boys shoot and kill this guy. And these boys are just spun out on drugs. And I think they’re even blindfolded.

JR: And I think it was even their own families.

BH: Yeah, that’s right. It’s people they knew. And then there’s a scene where the one boy, his dad gets to him, and the boy sees his dad as the enemy.

JR: Yeah, and he’s he’s in a struggle.

BH: He is.

JR: Because he’s been drugged out and told one thing.

BH: Yep.

JR: And already already murdered and whatever. And then his dad is appealing to a former life that he had lived. That is loving. You’re my son.You’re my son. I love you.

JR: I love you. You love me.

JR: I didn’t even think… That’s a great. It’s so good.

BH: Yeah, you got these kids coming back out of this and it’s like, what have I done?

JR: And I think a lot of them are… And this is I’m going to make… I’m making a general assumption here. Okay, so this isn’t we’re assuming that a lot of them have trauma and brokenness. Probably not the most stable home life. Not all a lot of them do. So they’re not having a dad that’s saying I love you. They’re not being told that there’s a God that loves them. So even when they even when they detransition, they’re, I mean, it’s isolation, it’s loneliness. And I think now that, again, if you have a platform that allows for free speech or them to find other people that are in the same, then there’s there’s community, there’s compassion. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Because I think to stay in sort of that same analogy, step out of the moment movie into the real world. There’s a reason that organizations like Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, ISIS, Boko Haram, especially Boko Haram, especially in Africa, has this huge surge in enrollment and enlistment is because they promise these young fatherless boys, a place where they have a mission and a community and a like minded movement. And so you’ve got kids that are being brainwashed into this religion of fundamentalist radical Islam, where they’re fighting holy wars, but it’s giving them a prize, it’s giving them value, it’s giving them status, it’s giving them mission. It’s the same thing for a kid that’s going, I’m 14 and I’ve never been able to figure out who I am. Now you’ve got a mission and status, you’ve got courage, you’re part of this movement to liberate and free people. But…

JR: Exactly.

BH: But in the end, they’re, they’re the one that’s the victim.

JR: Okay. So, man, I just got really excited. I got to calm down because I’ll just start preaching.

JR: Okay, take the guy that came to you afterwards after church the other day. Okay. And he’s saying, what do I do? What’s my purpose? What’s my mission? What am I a part of? And I think we have the opportunity as the church. I tell people all the time, like when… I think I was talking to Mugs, you know, who’s here at camp. And I said, if you work at camp, this isn’t a job, it’s a mission. And if you’ve been a Christian, and you go to a church and you ever go on a mission field, you’re on the mission field, you feel that purpose, you’re waking up earlier, you’re building a house and you’re leaving to go talk to this tribe or this group of people or you’re… So many different missionaries. Every day, their life is a mission. But for some reason, when we’re here in America, when we’re here in the States, it’s almost like it’s the status quo. And there are people in your communities right now that are looking for a mission and a purpose. And they’re looking for somebody else that’s on that mission and purpose. That’s what the church is supposed to be. And COVID it removed our ability to come together collectively as a community to see other believers that are living for Jesus to pray with other people to have conversations, you know, we need the body of Christ, we need community, we need other people to see, oh, man, we’re living on mission together. We have a purpose.

JR: You don’t have to substitute politics for your purpose of Jesus. Spreading the gospel, sharing Jesus, the Great Commission… We’re… We have a mission to live together. Not only that, but God has given us a purpose in every aspect of our life, singleness, marriage, you’re in college, whatever season of life you’re in, I guarantee you, you look in the scriptures, God has a purpose and it comes with meaning and intention and fulfillment in it. But we just have people that are so desperate that the world and the enemy and the devil is coming in and it’s substituting the purpose and mission of God for you name it. All these other things that are then they’re almost copying Christianity in the sense of its of its structure, its hierarchy, it’s… Here’s your purpose, here’s your, you know, preach this message, do and they’re finding temporary fulfillment, but it’ll lead to meaninglessness, because it’s not tied to anything that is good, which we believe is God. And so that student that’s coming to you afterwards, you know, and that’s why, you know, sometimes I have these conversations, I feel like it comes back to listen we believe that Jesus is real, that he is our authority, that the scriptures are real, that the scriptures are an authority, that I’m going to take this a step further and going into this conversation in regards to transgender, that our body is an authority.

JR: And see postmodernism is a rejection of all authority. And if your feelings are the authority but the body that God has given you is counter to that feeling…

BH: In opposition.

JR: Is in opposition. Well, you need to deconstruct or you need to reject that authority that God has given us. Submit it, bring it into submission.

JR: But for us as Christians in Genesis when… Okay, go back to Matthew, I think it’s Matthew 22, when he’s talking with his disciples and, or when the Pharisees, Sadducees come up to him and they’re talking about paying taxes. What does he say? He says, go get a coin. Whose image is on that coin? Caesar’s. Render to Caesar’s. What is Caesar’s? Render to God. What is God? He’s referring back to Genesis. We were created in the image of God. What? What was created in the image of God? Our bodies. Our physical bodies. So our body is connected to our purpose. Does that make sense?

BH: Yeah.

JR: All right. So we were created. So we’re not just a spirit in the body… A spirit in a body like the Gnostics believe. We are Christians and God created us physically and spiritually.

BH: And spiritually.

JR: And it’s together. And a part of that is there’s an authority that exists in the body. Just like we refer to Romans 1. Nature is an authority. Natural law is an authority. That’s why he says you could see the attributes of God in nature. Nature is something that is physically created. So we’re seeing attributes of God in physical nature. Not just in our internal emotional feelings. Does that make sense? But postmodernism, a rejection of truth. All truth claims are about power. We talked about that. Rejection of all authority. Deconstruction of authority. Elevation of feelings. So now we’re rejecting the authority of God, religious, Jesus, spirituality, naturally, our bodies, nature and trying to substitute it. And it’s leaving people feeling hurt, meaningless. Does that make sense?

BH: Yeah, it does. That makes sense. And even just for clarity for people that are doctrine defenders out there. Jon’s not saying that your body is an authority in the sense that your body is autonomous. He’s… The point he’s making is so good because it’s as image bearers of God. God put you into a human body that holds an authoritative position. In the sense of your sexuality, certain aspects of your identity and what what’s happening in this movement is I want to take the authoritative position of my body and then I want to I want to usurp authority over it. So what what that looks like in the transgender movement or moment is I’m a man. I’m gonna become a woman. I’ve taken… I’ve rejected the authority of my sexuality, my gender, whatever.

1:09:41.0 JR: My feelings are the authority and…

BH: Over this reality.

JR: And anything that is contrary to that…

BH: To my feelings. Yes.

JR: Right.

BH: Yep, that’s good man. I know that’s I think that’s so good.

JR: And if you go to Genesis, if you go to Scripture, he created us male and female. He created us with physical bodies. Our physical bodies have implications. And what I mean by that is it has purpose and meaning. There’s a reason why you are in the body that you’re in and God did not make a mistake. And we try to separate that as if like the physical world isn’t connected to the purpose of God.

JR: That’s good. But, you know. Well, we could go for days on this and we’re going to. We’re going to. We’re going to make this a more consistent in 2023. We’re going to have these conversations more frequently. This is the third. These are the third and fourth episodes of this year. 4th and 5th episodes of this year, but I’d like to do it a little more frequently and less time in between. I’m looking at our teaching schedule for next summer. Right now, and even within the the youth pastor breakouts that we’re going to do. We’re going to talk about how to simplify cultural issues. Through the truth. So how do we take all this stuff we’re talking about simplify it and teach students what you said right there at the end. This is where I want to close this because I think that’s so important. God did not make a mistake in making you. God did not make a mistake in making your daughter, your son. God did not make a mistake. Now we live in a fallen world and the effect of that is people are going to struggle. They’re gonna struggle with sexual desires. Some people are going to struggle with same sex desires. Some people are going to have those tendencies and feelings and desires. I’ve talked to so many believers who have had to fight that there. Some people are going to go through life experiences that reshape the way they view sex and sexuality.

JR: The bottom line is Jesus will heal what is broken and wounded. He will make whole what has been devastated. He’s the answer to your problems and your questions. But the righteous live by faith. So we have to walk out our faith, trusting in Jesus and then surround ourselves with people that because even when Katie was out there in California in the middle of that Los Angeles community, she had or that Angel City community. She had a church community there that she was running to for support and then many of us were speaking to her. You and I were talking to her texting with her on a daily basis and several other people here. She had the support of God’s people. I think living in community we’ve got to do a better job of encouraging each other and when when for I think for moms and dads to say hey when my kid comes to me and says I think I’m gay or I’ve got same sex desires or I think I want to be a boy and I’m actually a girl and not to freak out. Yeah, but to say hey listen first off you know that God loves you. Yeah, you know that I love you me in there and if you’re a family that’s married me and your mom or your stepdad or whatever. We love you and we’re going to get through this. Let’s work through this. Don’t freak out. I think a lot of times people see you made this point earlier.

JR: They see that kid as the enemy. They lump them in with the movement and they’re not they’re being swept up in this current and so we need to figure out how to pull them out of the current in a way that shows them love and support but without compromising the truth.

BH: I think it’s one thing that I love about Katie is you might disagree with her and not like her because of what she believes but not because of who she is and I think that is who we need to be. That we need to be resolute in what we believe Scripture says and who we are in Jesus but they are not going to reject us or not like us because of us. We’re going to love them. Compassion. They need us. We’re there. We’re going to love our enemies to the best of our ability but they’re not going to reject us because of us. They’re rejecting Jesus in us if that makes sense.

BH: Yeah, it does. Yeah. Well, that wraps up our time with Jon Rouleau for this week, for this episode, for this conversation but he and I, we sat and talked afterwards after we had wrapped the podcast up and talked about we need to make this a more frequent conversation or have him on more often just because he’s constantly he’s staying dialed in to what’s going on in social circles and cultural circles and in cultural moments. He’s really alert to that. He studies that and I just trust his insight because he looks at it through the lens of the gospel but also with cultural awareness and sensitivity but not the kind of sensitivity that leads to compromise. Jon… You’ll never see or hear Jon compromise the demands of the gospel and he also sees things for what they are and speaks to that. So I’m thankful that he’s willing to come on and give his wisdom and insight. I don’t keep up with those things. I’m probably like most of our listeners. I get frustrated, aggravated, sometimes heated when I hear just the foolishness of things that are going on. But you’ve got to remember we live in a fallen world. Jon keeps that perspective. It’s a good perspective because it drives us to be missional in the way we see things, the way we think about things. So we’ll have him back on real soon.

BH: Christmas is close. Excited. Excited for this season and excited for winter SWO. The week after Christmas we will have our first winter events of 2023 even though it will be the end of ’22. We call that the ’23 retreat year. So I think December 27th is the date that winter SWO one kicks off and then we do four of those events. Two over the Christmas New Year’s break. We do January 6th our college event, college retreat which is sold out with a huge waiting list. Praise the lord just for the people that wanna come to that and the impact. Jon will be speaking at that by the way. I think you might have heard him reference that there in our conversation. And then we have got a coupe of more winter SWOs, MLK weekends, president’s day weekend. We’re also gonna have our peer and holy retreat this winter. And then the next adult conference is after the college retreat in early January will be our iron on iron event which is a youth pastors, youth workers educators that we do a conference. That’s been moved fro August up to March. So going forward, we’ll be doing that in March.

BH: That’s by the way, that’s free for anybody working in student ministry whether you’re full time, you’re a volunteer, you’re a lay person that’s a free. That’s free for folks that work in student ministry. When I say full time, if it’s your full time job or if you’re a youth pastor that my buddy Adam Greene who runs a business and farms and got a bunch of going on but he’s a student pastor. Super helpful resource for guys like that. So regardless of what your vocational status is, the iron on iron conference is a great fit. And then the other one is our men’s conference, our be strong spring conferences. Will be coming out in March with our women’s respond conference following that in April. So before, we wind up, in the first part of the year for winter and spring and excited to see you in some of those events. Thanks again for your support and for listening really means a lot, we appreciate it. And we’ll see you next week. Merry Christmas everybody.